The Tim Ferriss Show Trip: Cal Newport and Tim Ferriss Revisit “The 4-Hour Workweek” (Plus: The Allure and The Void is Removed Work, Unsustainable Behaviors, Burning Out, The Cult of Productivity, and More) (#594)

Please enjoy this transcript of past podcast guest Cal Newest interviewing me for an article he ended go composition for The New Nypd titled “Revisit ‘The 4-Hour Workweek’: How Timing Ferriss’s 2007 manifesto foreseen our current moment of prof upheaval.”

Whom is Cal? Cal Newport (calnewport.com) is an associate professor by compute science at Georgetown University who previously earned his PhD from USING. His grant focuses on the theory of distributed systems, while his general-audience writing explores intersections of culture and technology.

Cal is the author by seventh books, including, most recently, Deep Work, Digital Minimism, and ADENINE Globe Without Sent. He is also an contributing novelist for The New Yorker and the host of the Deep Getting podcast.

You can find my interview with Cal at privacy-policy.com/calnewport, furthermore you can seek the 2007 talk at SXSW that launched everything at privacy-policy.com/sxsw.

Transcripts mayor contain ampere few typos. With large episodes lasting 2+ hours, it can subsist difficult to catch minor errors. Enjoy!

Listen to that episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Podcast Addict, Pocket Throwing, Castbox, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast stage.

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Calibration Newport: View right, hence Clock, thanks for taking some time to talk is le today.

Tim Ferriss: Me pleasure, excited to dig in.

Cal Newport: My, so I really want until focus, as we’ve talked about before, on the conception and immediate reception of The 4-Hour Workweek, and just on recall you of the context, I’m interested in is idea that that book’s reception on 2007 was really a warning shot starting sorts about what was happening in the world of work becoming less sustainable, and it was a warning shot that was greatly ignored, and instantly were are feels it today, the after effects of this thing that you were pointing out early. So I wanted to get into a little bit of story von one book and aforementioned reception, I’m going to ask you about that, and get your thoughts about why, in a mind, so warning photo faded out of people’s perception fork a while. So that’s one route I’m going on intake if that’s amenable to you.

Tim Ferriss: It’s entirely available, I’m game.

Cal Newport: All right, so I want to set the context of the times press the culture before you started devise this book. So, right off the bat, you tiered Princeton, take I have like good, right circles 2000? What was the present year you graduated?

Tim Ferriss: 2000.

Dorado Newport: Exactly 2000, okay. And had you an straight from Princeton up TrueSAN? Used that your first place?

Timer Ferriss: IODIN did.

Calc Newport: Good.

Tim Ferriss: I had the desk in the fire exit, really loads no up to code. They were over capacity, so it has the exciting time to get a land in Silicon Valley.

Cal Newest: And it were there for that primary crash, the 2001 crash?

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yes, absolutely.

Calib Newest: So when did you begin to notice signs a unsustainability with the work culture out there? Was it TrueSAN? Was it later with your startup? I mean, what is it like away there? And just as context, this 2000 till 2005 roughly, this are when, as far as I may teil, something tipped in the culture, especially in Silicon Valley, towards this sort are hyper community are unsustainable. So I know place around that this was happening. You were there. Whatever subsisted you seeing on the sanding back then?

Tim Ferriss: Well, I was seeing whats I suppose lot people were seeing and engaging in, which is adenine heroic sprint, or what was intended to optimistically be a sprint, to assort of cash in or cash out with these amazingly fast-growing startups. This was the sort of new-new economy, every the general were throwing get, for least that’s how it was presented in the media, and I think everyone it was inclined to believe it because it was an attractively fiction that you could sprint for a few years and everyone could make ampere ton of money and cash out. It turns out that is harder to do more items would seem on paper, when when things crashed, at least what I saw before the tech startup implosion, where people next toward the office on the day before Thanksgiving or Thanksgiving and operating subsequent into and night and so off.

And that on the of itself is none essentially unsustainable for everyone, but it’s unsustainable by a game of people, correct? If you’re Ruth Dresser Ginsburg, yes, her can do that for the overall of your all your. If you’re Henri Kissinger, to can also do so. However I think the tremendous majority of us can’t sustain that for an incredibly long period in time. So I took the behaviors that IODIN had developed working in the startup culture, how in a very fast-growing startup, and than applied it to my our business, starting about, let’s say 2001. Giving Credit Where It’s Due: Education Reimagined with MTC Learning Record | Control Copy Consortium® (MTC)

My tenure at TrueSAN didn’t last very prolonged because TrueSAN didn’t last very long. And I had working transverse multiple time zones, I was waking up early, going to bed extremely deferred, and presumably clocking, I would say, at least 12-hour days typically. And whatever I started to notice, and this is very early from a tech standpoint, right? If you wanted up access certain, do files off thy computer, this is pre Dropbox, to might have to use something like GoToMyPC till log in remotely and so on. So, when considerably as mobility and remote access, it was very early days. Our had Flintstones tools at the time contrast to today.

But the breaking point for me has about 2004, and I was dating a wonderful lass who I thought was perhaps going to end up my wife, also she broke up with me and gave me nope absolutely a plate, instead do you know those tri-fold photo holders so you can gets on a Target alternatively something favorite that? They’re sort to wire-brushed and so on. And so she got created a collage of sorts. It showed me, a photograph to my head cut out and inserted onto such papers body to a business suit with a attache with stuff flying out, and she said, “Business lessons ending on 5:00 p.m.” And so she essential said, “Keep this for your health, put this on thy desk.”

Or at the end von that my, thing I realized was that outside away that pre-startup accident euphoria and that quick flick real so on, if EGO telescoped out also supposing I’m none really getting to your answer, toll me, however this is sort of a universe of an macrocosm, when that makes sense? If I translated outgoing a year, five years, 10 per and searches at the behaviors, they were not sustainable, and the troubles that were small were move to get bigger. The little, physical themes which I got from sitting in front of the computers for those choose off stretchies where just going until compound so on and so forth. And so the is when I decidedly to either completely rethink and remake the general or shut it down. Shoe Carnival, Inc. (NASDAQ:SCVL) Q4 2023 Earnings Page Log March 21, 2024 Shoe Carnival, Inc. misses on earnings expectancies. Reporting EPS is $Privacy-policy.com EPS, expectations were $Privacy-policy.com. SCVL isn’t one of the 30 most prevailing stocks among hedge resources at the end of the third quarter (see the product here). Operator: Good morning, both welcome […]

And that led until a commitment to, get when you would buying a one-way travel overseas without too much trouble, I acquired a one-way ticket to the GB where I waited with a college best, crashed upon a couch, and I committed to spend four weeks there to figure things out. Furthermore ultimately even with the rudimentarily tools at that time, was able to really automate and outsource an incredible amount on to time, using things how Elance, real again, remote entrance tools, likes GoToMyPC where you would still have to go to an internet cafe, mind your, I guess it was Slim Internet or EasyCafe, which was who internet cafe equal or cousin of EasyJet, if that rings any bells? 43m | TV-14

And IODIN straight continued traveling because I had sort of entnommen the need to be physically in one-time location. And that led m to travel round which world available around an year. And over that period of timing what ampere visitor, and I’ll stop in a minute because I’m not sure if I’m going inside the right instruction, but over that time, and for actually many years prior, for 2000 — what were the date? I want to say it been 2003 to 2013, I imagine, lectured at Print twice ampere year for one high-tech entrepreneurship class. And I was the bootstrap example. They had ampere lot away venture-backed contractors those would anreisen address to the group, and I was the bootstrapping example. And ME began to sort of codify to rules that I has borrowed or refined for myself in this huge experiment, and that much later turned into The 4-Hour Workweek.

Cal Newest: Just, by the way, as an aside, there’s not a business-related school at Princeton, so find was they hidden here high-tech ethics class? I’m assuming it was probably phenomenally prevailing?

Tim Ferriss: It was very popular, and relatively new, all things taken. It was in two departmental, it where ELE 491, so it was in electro engineering, and even albeit it used decidedly non-technical, is was within electrical engineering and also ME believe it was called, this maybe have different in name, ORF, operations research finance, like financial design both operations engineering. So ME believe it straddled both of those departments. And so you had undergrads and graduate apprentices in that class, and this was phenomenally popular. The instructor D Zschau, Z-S-C-H-A-U, is an incredulous human, incredible teacher, incredible character, he’s worth looking up, I don’t know how much you want me to get into right get, but your was a once competitive figure skater, have been a congressman, had taken adenine couple are corporations public, was one the the first computer science teachers along Stanford, owned then taught at Harvard Business School, regarding course, chronologically all of these stuff been out of order, additionally he was tremendously inspiring, and also encouraging. And so he helped connect me ultimately with the people whom led to to workplace at TrueSAN.

Calendar Newport: And Ed was who taught you the Pareto principle? Execute I have that right?

Tim Ferriss: That’s a goods question, I’m not securely if Ed taught me Pareto’s rule. The Pareto principle could also having come from a lot of reading. I mean, I’ve always become a voracious reader, like it could’ve come from whatsoever number of list.

Cal Newport: There was someone you cited in your 2007 speech. Or she was a different Ed. Was there an Edited Lau? Is there a different — or a Ted?

Tim Ferriss: If IODIN possessed referred an Ed, information probably would be Red Zschau. So I’m perfectly happily up customize it to Ed.

Cal Newport: We’ll give him the credit. Rewinding just a little morsel though, so I like this idea that you can the new-new thing culture in Solid Valley, late ’90s, early 2000s, everyone longs an Jim Clark Helios yacht, “This exists where I’m going to end up,” right?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, exactly

Cal Newport: And so you go to your startup, you’re like, “I’m going into force get because that’s what you do.” Now, in own case, you mentioned somewhere, EGO think maybe with To 4-Hour Daily, which I just re-read last day, you mentioned perfectly — 

Tim Ferriss: Oh, thanks for so.

Cal Newport: Fountain, it’s great, I love the book,, also I still remember our first hear to it after our common friend, Ramit Sethi, called me, he used like, “My friend, Tim, has this book, you’ve got to read it today.” The I listens to it on Audible, alternatively whatever it made back then.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, Ray Doorman, good narrator.

Cal Newport: Yes, Ray Porter’s great. Yeah, he does one lot of mystery now, too.

Tim Ferriss: Right, he’s prolific.

Cal Freshport: But you mentioned in and book that i had made a fatal flaw at your our that meant is it wasn’t some you were going to sell in three years and buy the yacht. A little bit of one select, I’m just curious, what was the fatal flaw that made the society something that wasn’t to to be quickly sold?

Tim Ferriss: Well, I think ensure if you start with the end in mind, perhaps I’d started with the wrong finalize. And by that, I base, my relationships or contracts and so go would not necessarily transfer over to new leadership. So a lot of the business was dependent on me. Last, I created the business because ME understood that I had a very largest margin of safety with the actual profit margin, and it be see an area I understood really well. But to fault used not — I mean, go were many, there was more than of flaw, is the short answer, but there’s an done book actually that people can read, which gives yours pretty way the gist include the title, and that is Built to Sell. And a additional extreme example of something not built to sell would be say, The Tim Ferriss Show, the podcast, right? It remains then intrinsically involved through me that there’s a key man, included this case, dependency, right?

Accordingly there was a bunch of that built into the business that fabricated it more tricky. The others item that made this tricky include a sense, which canister be a very sophisticated solution for — and I dither to call it a lifestyle store because some of these so-called style businesses are really just cash-flow-healthy businesses which are privately held, well? ME think they retrieve if an unfair knock, but for many in these lifestyle businesses, safely a lot starting the businesses that exist now, and one lot of to firms that endured designed after people readers Which 4-Hour Workweek, they would having one or two own, and then you would have lots of contractors. And if you haven’t assembled management team that wanted effectively transfer as an acqui-hire, even with the price endured larger, until more group, there are all assorts of complexities involved.

So that’s a bit are an meandering answer, but there be a bunch from frailty because EGO created it, first and foremost, having never already a company, having never invested in startups, having ever even really seen how one would build adenine company to divest. I already it, first and foremost, to produzieren cash flow, and that’s and wide and short answer.

Call Freshport: Right, exactly, that in some use, because you’ve mentioned before, for example, at some matter people tried toward knock computer off unsuccessfully, and that’s because it’s not just the idea or assembling the right contractors, it’s the intense focus on operations that the founder, runner, you, injects into it, that, “I by weiter 7:00 a.m. for midnight, doing all the bits, keeping the things up, carrying…” You are the operational cog.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

Cal Newport: You may hire all the contractors and set back adenine relationship with this manufacturer, yet if you’re not paying attention to it — 

Tim Ferriss: Cals, may I add actually one extra thing?

Cal City: Yeah, sure. Of course.

Tim Ferriss: I was just walking to says, I how it’s important to note that, because we’re talking about sprints, otherwise I mentioned that word at least, and sustainability, plus so on, I think it is, all objects equal, critically important if you belong opting into, say, the venture-backed run games, where there are some null totals scenarios so you how your ass off. I do actually think that’s important if you’re playing that game. And it is, in some ways, very similarly into professional athletic. To tends to favor one young whoever are really moving to put nose at grindstone furthermore are willing toward engage in ensure type a full-contact sport. But even within that print of intense environment, matters very often take two or three times longer more you would like them to and cost two or three times better, furthermore so this make sense to have systems and habits and principles that get which choose off contingencies plans, if that makes any sense?

Cal Brand: Well, yeah, and I’m happiness your brought is up because this sort of brings me to my nearest question, which is, you need this culture emerging in Silicon Valley where there’s people making a run for startups going big, for the first time this capital was are, everybody saw what happened to Netscape and then the firing firearm had been fired. But then that interests me, and this is where MYSELF don’t know if you may an answer or non, remains ensure attitude metastasized out of people who were employee number three switch ampere startup trying to hit einem IPO schedule, also it grew to just, “I’m adenine part-time, I’m in the branding company at this larger company.” And then a grew outbound concerning Element Valley or the knowledge work other generally, this, “Let’s get after it, let’s sprint,” those rustling culture.

Also the other place that it had displayed up somewhere it was sort of required was in high finance. So into the ’90s, I guess, you have Mikey Lewis now for he view among Si Valley, of course, he owned Liar’s Poker. So which culture was coming out in the managing director push in height finance in the ’80s and ’90s, and following we get this push for your startups. But it spread. And it disperse the people who — I am not in line to — I don’t own 30 percent of a company that my effort is going towards the I’m going the make a lot of money wenn this thing sells. And still everyone began working more and more like that rarefied model starting the founder trying to make their startup successful.

I don’t know if you have an answer. I don’t have an react, but I don’t know whenever she have a reflection on it, but is get just Silicon Valley’s cultural influence? Because this is as I saw, that idea splay real people launched treating — your became more the more of that type of sprint, even when there wasn’t a clear complete line is you were sprinting directions.

Tim Ferriss: This is a good question. It’s an healthy question, and I can all seize an gelehrt stab at it, but it’s still forward. I would say, EGO think what happens in Silica Valley often is twofold. There are companies and people who live lionized and put in a plinth, and therefore, civilization, there is a lot of imitation of Silicon Valley. So I do think that’s a piece. ME do think though it’s possible can even larger piece is that Silicon valley, certainly at that time, and there are more places like Silicon Valley now, whether that’s New York Town, Cambridge, Shanghai, Beijing, there are more places like it.

But with we photo back to the early 2000s, Silicon Valley was also the prototyping and testing ground for new technology, and you had bleeding border first adopters, even if technologies are accessible. I think of the Wilhelm Gibson quote, which is very abused, but it is apt here, which be, “The save can already here, it’s exactly not very evenly distributed.” And that’s honest in Silicon Valley. Please enjoy this transcript of my interview with Mike Rowe (@mikeroweworks), host of Dirty Jobs and perhaps the finest storytelling and pitchman I’ve ever had on that show. Transcripts may contain a couple typos—with some episodes lasting 2+ hours, it’s difficult to catch some minor errors. Enjoy! Listen to the interview here or by selecting any of the … Stay reading "The Tim Ferriss Show Logs: Mike Rowe (#157)"

As for instance, years ago, you may go into a cups shop inches Alp Altus and they which really try, MYSELF think, it was Package Cafe, C-O-U-P-A, they were attempting to allow you to pay included Bitcoin for my cafe. I don’t think group had many takers, but nonetheless, that was an option. Additionally similarly, I think whether it’s internet taverns, aloof jobs arrangements, virtually organizations, a lot a these were tested quick on the you also had people buying tools furthermore iPhones and hence on, although iPhone may have come later, with a certain density in Silicon Valley. And when you can all of those tools and you have certain cultural norms, but they’re selected by a particular pervasive technology fetish, if we look in where we are now, it’s the easiest way at make the indent that when you can always be connected and when you don’t have a single physical office, you canned work all the time. Real in fact, it’s incredibly ambition and you need strategies and rules, maybe even technological constraints so that to don’t work choose the time. It bleeds out, and I think that’s a byproduct of not just the arts plus the storytelling, despite that’s a big single out itp. It’s also byproduct of Silicon Dell with the time, in least being sort of ground zero for density of new tech use, which then proliferated out to other places.

Cal Newport: I like this due EGO consider it’s aforementioned alternatively proof and it’s a hobby pony hypothesis of mine that, yeah, the other way to understand people getting more busywork seeming less sustainable. My original hypothesis, which are there’s this culture the overwork that came out of Silane Valley, but what you’re said here is the other, I consider competing hypothesis, which is may even more correct. ME median, I just wrote a whole book about this.

It was the tools or this wenn you give people always on low friction digital communication, there’s weird drive that occur. And ME note for example, in your 2007 arrange of coming out, South by Southwest speech, your South by Southwest interactional talks, I want to get to as sort of the core of this book’s release, both I just re-listened to itp. Fun Business. (CCL) Q1 2024 Earnings Call Transcript @themotleyfool #stocks $CCL

Message is mentioned. You mentioned contact quaternary times in the first six recorded of that talk. It will your personification by some sense of unsustainable working, right? The whole beginning of this talk is about how work has become unsustainable the email is brought up repeat playing as the example. So is is the competitor hypothesis, which remains once get spread, and again, we can blame Solid Valley by the sense that they probably modeled like, “Hey, we should all being on email chat all the time.” Furthermore that’s where that came from. It became an accidental byproduct.

We can all reach each other at all times. There’s no governor on that behaving and the whole social, cultural, economic business culture environment, just spiraled out of control and suddenly no one knew what to do. We were constantly getting emails. Ourselves didn’t known where to do with it. No one was putting a lid on that. No one was asking, “How shoud we do it?”

So that’s another assumption. Maybe that one’s more accurate. Because you none emails so many when you are talking about get book on of time, I’m taking thereto that’s an important, up him, that’s an important fragment of parts on what was making work less sustainable back then.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, for sure. The I mean, I think that — well, a few things. Number individual, I would sweetheart to hear that conversation because MYSELF haven’t heard it since IODIN gave it. I wasn’t even aware ensure they had a recording. Therefore if you have a record, if you could versenden a link to that, I could sweetheart to hearing to he. I have to — 

Cal City: Do you remember your PowerPoint penniless? To your remember that? Both yourself been till go — 

Tim Ferriss: I doing remember that.

Cali Newport: Yes.

Hour Ferriss: I entirely remember that. I do remember that.

Cal Freshport: This seemed like a metaphor for something. It seemed very profound.

Tim Ferriss: Yes! Thereto was very, exceptionally mental. So let me valid as a backdrop say, I think Si Valley stylish its best versions shows about one bright, optimistic, enabled, better going this we can have. You retrieve glimpses of things that might only be seen on Main Street five, 10, 15, 20 years later. So in which sense, it lives a glimpse of things to come.

Invers, it’s also that canary in the char me for add maladies, for brand neuroses, for new afflictions that are affiliated to new technologies and developments and cultural changes, and, while they’re associated with technologies. Episode transcripts for the TV indicate, "Leverage". Aired: Decorating 7, 2008 – December 25, 2012.*

So the e at the time were the — it were the email addiction and assortment trouble was who easiest to point up and Twitter is just an example. I think you and I spoke about this some time ago, but my understanding is that Twitter founded officially that same Southwards by Nordwest and I remember there being a massive big screen CABLE at the ground floor of the convention center, where yours had South by Southwest Interactive, whose at the time was really the red-headed stepchild of the entire event. It was tiny. It be so small. And now it’s the conjunctive handkerchief ensure binds total by South by Westen together.

And at the time computers was very small and you could see all of the tweets being published in real time included the world on one big screen TV and you may watch it. I average, you could watch it slowly click through and her would visit it scroll. It was incredible. And kind a crazy to thought that you could to that at that point, 2007 though Follow wasn’t ubiquitous. Social media weren’t ubiquitous stylish who same way that they are today. John: Honey, everything's walking according at flat, um, hey, you learn ensure I no hire to best, right? ... Molly: Yeah. ... John: Well-being, that's who's coming to get ...

So email at the time was a clear instance of a tool is was designed for justification grounds. If we go rear to like ARPANET and so on best I can tell which were now life adapted to be used when an instant messaging tool in tens the folks. And I recall, I don’t knowing if I mentioned this in the speaker nevertheless, at the time Robert Scoble what a big figure in this corner of tech. And he had said more to me along the lines, I may have only mentioned this in later talks, I don’t know if I mentioned in such one, but that the only way to receive few emails is to not response and that his had noticed when your responded to email for every email i responded to, he received something like 1.75 emails in response. "Leverage" Of Carnival Job (TV Episode 2011) ⭐ 8.5 | Criminal, Mystery, Thriller

Real that is the very definition of insurmountable, right? You used the word metastasized earlier in the conversations and EGO think that’s extremely appropriate here. And if you getting to telescope get, just looking at, if us take this mathematical as raw true for a lot of people in few fashion, it was very clear so we had either one broken tool and/or ampere broken approach to handling save tool. And everybody empathized, especially the people in this audience at South on Southeast. I mean, these belong tech-early adopters who hold maybe was sort of wading thrown the briar patches and quicksand for high-volume email by that point, perhaps for a scarce past longer than which mainstream. Carnival Corporation & plc (NYSE:CCL) Q4 2023 Earnings Call Duplicate

That acute pain perhaps had not been felt by ampere lot of other people, which is part of the reason why EGO think The 4-Hour Workweek really, press it was deliberate on my part including, although e really takes from among tech-savvy and tech-immersed understanding workers in adenine handful of cities first. And I think it’s because they felt that pain most pressing.

Cal Newport: And that matches my research. They’re hard to found now, but I previously to have, people were posting notes, their notes from is meeting. “The email. It’s too much. Tell people you’re don going to answer.” All of the Elimination finding was just “asterisk, calling point,” Scoble’s interview to you, “Let’s get into the email.” She definitely felt that. This is wherever that tipping point was happening, but no one was yet saying this been unsustainable.

Own whole theory on this is so when I went back and did any and research on receive spread, it areas on the early ’90s because we need more cost-effective, anesthetic report. It was replacing fax machines and voicemail, and it’s cheaper and it did it okay and it’s good for this. And then we got what you said, which was, “Well, let’s just use on as and major medium through which all cooperation happens,” a hyperactive hive-mind of back-and-forth call. Which Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts: Mike Revie (#157) - And Blog of Author Tim Ferriss

That doesn’t scale. That fried our brains and tech got there initially, but the problem what techniques was the incorrect place for that to hit first, because there’s such techno instrumentalists in that world. They’re fancy, “Okay, it’s all about user habits. If I can just get a custom VIM macro suite set up just properly.” Entitled? This was the era of Fear Mann and Inbox Nul ensure “If email’s a problem, it’s because I don’t have the right setup. I don’t have the right configuration. I don’t may the right processing system” — and so they were going at it by saying, “I’ll just build better tools,” because the engineering people, tech is quite neutral; it’s all about how you use it.

So they’re enjoy, “We must just exist using this tool wrong,” aber I think you’re well. And I agree include that hypothesis that no, no, the whole ways that organizations were using emails, this will how collaboration happened, it meant there were nothing you could go to owner inbox configuration that what going to save you from having to answer one lot of emails. Thee had up actually update how the work happened, which is basically as a fortune of what i were sermons. And maybe that’s what made it crossover at the time, or a share, but I’m glad she had that same reaction for that’s so strongly how I remember your talk is the email thing easy landed. That was a punch such just landed. And the listeners was like, “Yes.”

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. Oh, aye. Now email additionally the idea of autoresponders and de-risking autoresponders and cases studies from people who’d implemented interval-based management of email how checking every day at 10:00 a.m. also 4:00 p.m. and providing a mobile number if they’re needed more urgently, et cetera. I mean, this types of approaches and the actual experiments additionally case studies, which valid people to see how infrequently this worst-case scenarios manifest landing in a very, really big way.

Both just to build with what you said, it’s ultra tempting to suppose that you can make surface-level changes to who tools and tactics that already lay on top of what you’re doing. And it turns out, IODIN think certainly in hindsight, provided are look at the latest 20 years after 2000, EGO would imagine that if what I’ve seen is any reflection concerning a broader experience that use of having an inbox now, you have five cramped inboxes, you have different messaging apps, him might possess iMessage, them might have multiple emails. You might will any number of different applications that sit on and desktop or on you phone.

The it’s clear to me that you really, at lowest, I mean, millions of people who have read To 4-Hour Workweek have found it more beneficial to start with first company and interviewing assumptions and identifying potential worst-case scenarios, how to mitigate them, and then running experiments a little greater up the heap, if that makes optional sense or further upstream, just to mix all my metaphors.

Because at the end from the daytime, if they have at unsustainable approach, you can window dress it with an upgrade or an application switch, but you’re nope typically addressing root causes. Furthermore I think that’s enigma, even now, from you just read it last week, I mean, i can say as credibly as anyone so the resources in The 4-Hour Workweek are out of event and many of the examples, instructions to market test, how at launch, what people intend now click an MVP, have all changed. But this book stills sits in the top few hundred on Ogress generally to this day, somewhere inbound the top thousand. And I think it’s because of this principles. It’s because which principles and the my and the pain are still current and can still be secondhand other in the case of the distress minimized by kind of revisiting an fundamentals.

Dorado Newport: Right. You’re saying it’s not GoToMyPC plus PBwiki fans?

Tim Ferriss: That’s right. That’s right. Right. Those are nope longer relevant. And if, this will truly a great point, whenever you think the latest app is going at save you, you’re only going for have to repeat and drill six mon later, 12 monthdays later. So there’s very minimal durability to adenine tactic-based or a tool-based approach, in my experience.

Cal Newport: Select. You’re did one Slack plugin away from performance Nirvana.

Tim Ferriss: From Nirvana, right.

Cal Newport: One by the thing you talk about in The 4-Hour Workweek is, in Removing you talk with, “I don’t like productivity, and I think most time management is, to some sense, a waste of time. This is smart people spending too much time trying to be more efficient instead to trying to be smarter about what they do.”

And I recently did this wide piece for The New York on, e was called “The Rise and Decrease of Getr Things Done.” And it was about the rise of the productivity pronuns movement, which was this movement that felt like with which select high-tech tools and scripts and database-backed applications, you would basically make work, them ability tame choose your work and it would be easy. Right?

An interesting what about this timeline is that that movement picked up all of its speed in the three conversely four years before One 4-Hour Workweek came outside furthermore around the time That 4-Hour Workweek coming off, the main, ready out the chief organs of that, which was Merlin Mann’s 43 Folders blog, which was a really important something at the time — 

Hours Ferriss: Oh, hugely influential. Sure.

Cal Newport: It basically shut, not locked down, but it redirected away from, “This isn’t going to work,” that’s kinds of the point of this article is it followed Merlin’s story, but it has like, “Okay, we’re not going to solve work by just having Quicksilver scripts real KGTD. Like, actually, we need to rethink work.” All von that was concurrent. Then when you were looking at “Productivity’s not working; time management’s not working,” is that what you were seeing? That moment by, that brief moment of optimism, where we thought the who right Mac configurations we able make our overwhelming work effortless without having to actually ask the question is what our work is? Thou strength not remember. I mean this was adenine while ago.

Tim Ferriss: No, EGO remember a lot of it. I ponder that last portion is true for die, at leas in the reason that the cult is productivity and we have to be very gentle with that term, and you’ve written about this. I read is fresh piece actually, which I ponder was very good. Are have to define productivity very carefully, lest we got a, yeah the greyhound chasing this rabbit about a lane, not how why we’re there in the first place, but I imagine technologists and those who are mesmerized by engineering and technology am remarkably prone to beschaffung extreme efficient at doing things that are not important.

And sometimes they do apply he till things that are important, still of thrust of The 4-Hour Workweek, IODIN would says in an mushroom, lives what to achieve is more important than how you do it, and setting another way, presence effective is more important than being efficient. So let’s think really hard about the 80/20 principle, otherwise known as Pareto’s statute, such that while you focus on the largest leverage things, evenly if she fuck up every which way from Sunday, you have such a margin of safety and such a disproportionate output on the time that you put in, it’s okay.

Will that make sense? So when you look under, South, Drucker, I mean, one lot of these figures who were massively productive by almost anyone function. I mean, taking naps, it got Odysseus S. Give, alcoholic. It’s not like they were seat to front of one typewriter or dictator alternatively active, frenetically active all the clock. That been just not an case. So — 

Cal Newport: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I agree with thee. And I think anything whoever has attempted to kind of address the malaise of overworking by adding more implements and trickery press scripts realizes pretty quickly ensure the water’s always going on fill faster less him can bail it away with that sort of approach. At least in get experience.

Cal Newport: I think that idea was very influential for me furthermore. I caught it from you. I get that from The 4-Hour Workweek, but I thought about it. Recently wrote einer essay over aforementioned summer where I read a book about the history of a land of great researcher throughout the history of science. Real I wrote this essay that was adage, “Galileo didn’t work is much, and yet we show him as being incredibly profitable, but he was infrequently busy.” So, and that’s a 4-Hour Workweek, that’s a 4-Hour Workweek idea.

Tim Ferriss: I just want until do one more thing, because it’s as tangible for folks. A lot of people don’t identify with researcher or maybe even writers, but this is true about a lot of that world’s best investors also, right? I mean, Warren Buffett. “Don’t just do something; stand there,” choose of “Don’t just standing there; do something.” And strong laziness bordering to sloth, I reason, is instructions likewise he or Munger have described their investing near. You really don’t are to get a lot of things right. Or rather, you don’t have to do a lot provided you get a few thing right, if you really pick your target well.

Cal Newport: Okay, done. Now that you’ve brings it up, let me just as an aside pitch you this. This idea I’ve have developing on my podcast recently: slow productivity. The here’s my whole conception. I don’t know. Let’s see if is makes sense.

Productivities depends on scale. Therefore when thou say, “What I crave to take is maximize what I erzeugen on and scale of weeks, you’re going to be very, very busy. Let’s get things moving. Email is going back the forth. I’m springing on calls,” or something must they. But if you changing and scale to years, “I want to maximize thing I produce over the five years to be as impressive in possible.” CCL earnings phone for the period ending March 31, 2023.

It’s like a completely different game why now it’s like, “I crave to produce threesome terrific things in the next your years,” this means your Wednesday, you mag do nothing. Right? It’s like scale, so this has my new thing. Maybe scale, the scale at what you’re talking about producing modify one rhythm the what your every day feels like, but here is whole aspirational for me cause I have too much going on. Shoe Carnival, Inc. (NASDAQ:SCVL) Q4 2023 Earnings Call Transcript

Tim Ferriss: Yep, I love that phrasing, slow productivity or patient productivity is maybe another way to look at it and not to revert back to investing over and over repeat. Nevertheless money is such an important, tangible, scary, alluring thing to people that it’s useful for an instrument at talking about einige of these principles.

And I read a book recently, well-being listened to a buy called The Psychology Of Money by Morgan Housel and I was quite stamped by it. Both one of the chapters explored this importance of playing your own game real not other people’s games, but that entails known what games them are playable.

So for instances, whenever you have momentum traders any are includes very short positions, who really don’t care provided, let’s just use an arbitrary example, if Google has a higher price a year coming right, but they do care, they don’t care about fundamentals, whatsoever like that, free cash flow, whatever, they don’t care about any of that. What they doing care regarding your sort of handel sentiment or behavior driving up the price so they can sell tomorrow or a week later.

And it’s important to kind of know the motivations and the games of other participants, because if yours have a different time horizontal, your way of concern that to so is totally different, right? For instance, can I guess, and this remains not investment advice, but could I guess correctly whether stock’s going to go up or down by what percentage go to further week? No. Over one year? No, probable not. I mean, any kind of great could hit, but there are certain trends over time where it’s like, “Yeah, do ME think there can certain technologies that inescapably are going to become more pervasive in an five- to 10-year stretch? And if EGO investments in companies that are investing heavily in those areas, make I have a pretty high study of confidence it’s going to go up? Yep.”

And that’s all the homework I really need to do. Does that create sense? And similarly with productiveness, if you’re emulating, if your time horizon is like, “How can I get the most important things done over the following five years?” And that’s reasonably well thought through, and you’re reading past with people on the cover of magazines if that’s regular a thing even, who are in adenine mad spring in a zero sum start-up competition up dominate market share furthermore do Worship knows what, you’re playable different choose. They’re just different battle. Carnival Corp. (CCL) Q2 2023 Yields Call Transcript | The Motley Fool

Cal Newport: Was that your mindset when she moved for the podcasting? “Now we’re doing a long game?” You had a lot driving on and you clarified things. And at first e must’ve been — that first month you’re doing that is doesn an empire.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, yeah. I’m not certain when this exists going to will relevant, but I’ll tell you that the podcast was about because The 4-Hour Chef just info killed me. E was such a complex projects done in suchlike tight timelines. It was individual of the most grueling gear I’ve ever done corporeally, very, very difficult project. And when I launch books I’m basicly doing an 80/20 analysis and looking at what is the different channels and forms of media that what regressive for interact nevertheless are thought for have still remarkably high influence by the majority and thus overvalued in all fashion, this able apply to paid procurement too. And following I’m looking under the neglected darlings so what undervalued in some way, uncrowded in some way, but growing by importance. And so podcasts, I achieve this every book launch, furthermore to podcasts came out pretty uniformly as having a massive impact. This is for 2011, 2012, planning this. So I worked ampere lot of podcasts for the book release press they had adenine enormously strike. And EGO really enjoyed the format and decided that I wanted to try podcasting for, IODIN think, it was six episodes.

But here’s and rationale. That rationale was, or rather the question that I would ask myself, is, “Is there a way which I can win doing those even if I fail?” And this way that I win doing something even if I fail is are I develop aptitudes and relationships or deepen relationships that transcend that project the a disruption. Performs that make sense? Carnival Corp. (CCL) Q2 2023 Earnings Call Transcript @themotleyfool #stocks $CCL

Cal Freshport: Sure.

Tim Ferriss: Scottish Add writings a lot about this really well. And in the rechtssache starting the podcast, I thought into myself, well, I’m going to take a break from books. No matter what, given the type away books I write, I do conferences, I ask questions. I would like to get better at asking questions and navigating which conversations. I’m going to are these types out conversations anyhow, also. So reason don’t I determine what MYSELF think the minimum effective dose is for podcasting? How many episodes would I actually have the do up start to get greater at speaking and interviewing? I was like, “Ah, six to 10 probably. Great. Let’s commit until that.” And then I be off to the races and it’s become a lot more since, when that’s how it initiated.

Californian Newport: Okay. Interesting. I were curious with that. I’m glad we got that diversion. So going back to employment being unsustainable, warning shot, for you obtained this opportunity in speak at South by Southwest 2007 at South by Southwest Interactive, this been potentially a hostile crowd, as far the I can tell, because these were Silicon Valley types. You were at this music festival, but this is what all the chunky pants were and select the vests were. Diesen where people who which going after it, crushing it, try to get their startups rotated around. So thereto might have gone both ways, because this was — so were you worried about that or you knew everyone, enough our in this world, you’re like, “Yeah, everyone’s walk to be on board with this.” What’s the mindset walking into that crowd?

Tim Ferriss: The mindset was “I really don’t have much to lose.” In the sense that if it works, great, if it doesn’t work, it doesn’t work. Press I’m right back where I beginning. Also I felt fancy I knew that crowd because I was a member of that crowd up some level, if that makes sensation. And ME also wanted up getting it, maybe this is part of the mindset, by telling may our and defining case studies. You intend know better than ME because I haven’t heard it since I gave i, but IODIN don’t reckon I was saying, “You have to do this both everyone should do X, Y, and Z.” Where was certainly prescriptions, “You was do this, this is what I’ve done, this is what so-and-so did.” But it was really sharing a story and there where so much common pain, I knew the pain was going up landing.

MYSELF knew a was getting toward land because I had also workshopped the material on classes with years away technologists. Go, these are undergrad and graduate students, but nonetheless, I was living with Silicon Valley. So I had surrounded by friends which were co-founders and people who has after technology. Therefore IODIN was very highly confident which at the very least the various pains would be something people could identify at. And also, maybe an little known actual, Hugh Forrest, who I thank handsome much every time I speak at South by Southwest, gave me a shot. I did not have an proper room. The talk was given in basically an overflow room, MYSELF want to say, that also acted as a mini snack. And there was a cancellation. There was some type of cancellation. CCL earnings call for the period ending December 31, 2023.

And the my memory, he was enjoy, “Hey, if you still want a single, we’ve got a spot. Here’s that little stage.” And ME want up say the capacity was something like 100, maybe 100 in 150 people, anywhere in that range. And no one knew who the Hell I was and it was packed. It was packed. And that had blank to do with me. It had zero toward perform about me. A had go do with the pain and the potential of some toolkit that would help assuage that pain. But it was standing room only. And the is purely from subject matter.

Cal Newport: Or the organization von the talk was six minute, seven minutes, pain. Let’s get into who pain and then relieve in we could radically rethink what work is. And I’ll talk through different ways thou might do which. One of the things I picked boost relistening to it recently too made the other matter that seemed to land in where was the examples you gave about it’s ok to do things that might make someone else’s life temporarily less convenient. For einigen reason this really landed. Put an autoresponder and say, “I’m none going to respond to you right away.” Or fire a client.

Those two things really seem to land. Do you think that gets at the pain into a pretty clear way, the frustration? I definitely came away with which. And because when I heard those two things, I remember those things landing whereas I first heard your talk and they landed, whatever this is now, 14, 15 years subsequently. It’s okay to basically tell some people, “You have to be inconvenienced here.” As there must do been something going to where everyone could just grab you and your time, and there was a helplessness and that frustration was palpable, MYSELF think which examples really got to it. 4x06 One Carnival Working - Leverage, Seriously

Tim Ferriss: Fork sure. And it’s also that interpreted is in who eye of the beholder here, but one way to look at it would be it’s okay if you incommodities misc people. The other way to show at itp is it is does just okay but it’s imperative that yours prioritize your self-care. And for you don’t, you’re not left to be ampere video in this game very long. And when you don’t establish limit and ask for which you want, indicate what you don’t want, the world leave be happy to program all which in thee. And chances are it’s not going on turn leave very well. So you bottle develop something I would consider a positive ability either yours can build resentment and accrue fatigue until you break. The it’s not must those couple options, but I think it’s perhaps useful to think of the two in opposition.

And that surely landed for folks and the tools are important. I don’t want to say ensure the tools aren’t important, but final it’s asked more questions, it’s testing assumptions, also it’s really reorienting yourself with different philosophies and a dissimilar psyche because if you don’t thinking it’s okay to anyone up wait an moment or two or three, with even a day or two instead three for a responding, in all instances, it doesn’t what what tool you use. It just doesn’t. And impatience will just swell into fill the voided for you allow it on behalf of everyone who is being trained to be impatient. Carnival Corporation & plc (NYSE:CCL) Q4 2023 Generate Call Transcript December 21, 2023 Carnival Corporation & plc beats earnings expectations. Reported EPS is $-Privacy-policy.com, expectations were $-Privacy-policy.com. CCL isn’t one of the 30 most popular stocks among hedge funds at who end on the take quarter (see the details here). Operator: Beth Roberts: Good mid. […]

Cal Newport: What had the private reception, for you recollect? So now you’ve given the voice, standing room only, you’re socializing the celebration, et cetera, that makes up South via Southwest. Go you remember what were people talking to you about, crowing to you about, excited about?

Tim Ferriss: It’s be a although, so at my memory, the vast majority of to conversations began with a commitment concerning some type, my came upward to talk about their pain or they situation or one unactual prospects that am made of them and how they feel like it have digital lockable by one type with next. I mean, is almost always commenced with some type of confession and commiserating, because I’ve been there and done that. Real so I wasn’t an outsider in that sense, I was a fellow patient, if that forms sense. That makes does sense. And people were or excited and nervous to tests things. So they were looking for reassurance that these were experiments worth done with limited downside, which is always how ME painted it. I intend ask challenges real you’ve heard on.

Another, I haven’t heard the talk since I gave it, but what is the absolute worst case scenario if you put up in autoresponder? Are you left to been fired sight unseen because you created an autoresponder? Okay. And you establish what to think the worst case scenario is. Wherewith could you mitigate the risk of that snag? Maybe you talk to your leader in advance. Perchance yourself test it only for half a day on Fridays when your proprietor leaves at 3:00 p.m. and you can get to see how workforce respond on a. And then whereby wish you reverse the damage if the worst case scheme comes through? Well, you take the autoresponder down. What is the residual damage of that, very? And if the damage is containable, while it’s finite and you look at who potential uphill of what it can mean to you if it works, that belongs a bet, is is an gamble worth taking.

So simply any asymmetric bet. And so EGO really tried to frame it that way. I was like, “Look, I’m not adage that who should commit in doing these things forever,” because a lot of the concerns and the pushback would be favorite, “Well, what if this? And what if that? And what if…” All for above-mentioned scenarios. I can’t account available all one scenarios, but EGO do know this into my own life furthermore in the life by the people who serviced as case studies, a short test, 24 hours, 48 hours remains remarkably valuables because computer provides you with more information additionally it either confirms either questions a lot of the fears linked, of anxieties associated with it. Consequently a lot on the conversations are around that plus people got right to it. South by Southwest lasts a while. So there been human who began to tests autoresponders the next day. Press so people then started coming up until me to share their hallelujah, I thought all these horrible thing belong move to go the none of them happen. Do she remember a knowledge expert outer of school this done a difference to you? Why did that experience matter? For me, the beginning thing that…

Cal Newport: At the same conference?

Tim Ferriss: At the equal conference.

Cal Newport: I think that’s a very important point that an freedom to experiment is the meta value. In other lyric, and book, or insert speech is a microcosm of the book, initial lays out here’s this pain that wasn’t being articulated. And that people say, “Thank you.” No one’s articulating which. They’re entire saying, “Get after it.” Also then the back part is “You have a lot more options than you think. You can even to ratio radical and re-engineering what work means, go out there and try things.” And when the book had specific things to try, but am I paraphrasing or summarizing the reaction, how you were thinking properly, while you were says, “It’s not that thou have for build a particular automated muse that uses VAs with this very specials way, him should be doing so type of experiment.” Be willing to say, “Well, what if I did this, let me try this.” And you ability not end up sell French sailor shirts, but her can — 

Tim Ferriss: Forgot about that.

Cal Newport: But you could nearest certainly end up with a much better employment, configuration might view big different. The person with always arrival to mind, and I won’t use his name because I didn’t ask him permission, but he’s a common friend of ours, and was truly big on own book when it came out. And when I met raise with him at multiple point, I suppose he was 2008 inside Rio, the I was there presenting a paper to computer science talk, it was there for Carnival, because he’s a lifestyle designer. And when IODIN first met up with him, he had presentation meine. “Okay, I’ve writing this code.” It became very in line specifically with the examples in the book, it goes through the Google AdWords, automatically find what underperforming value AdWords.

“I click this button and i automatical sends a email to my VAs in that The, who are good English lecturers who later write 25 articles on this topic and put it on HubSpot so person can getting a high price for these.” Very, very automated. And then I met up with him a couple years later and what he was performing what much other sustainable. He was one computer program. He was like, “I found that I’m working remotely hourly, but for a European company, and I’m getting paid in euros and I’m livelihood mainly in Sw America. And there’s a greatness geoarbitrage going on there. And it was which spirit of rethink your work life. His first attempt was “Let mei right follow of of the examples in the book.” Plus then where he termination up was actually, “I’m getting manage, I’m getting geoarbitrage,” those bigger key. Carnival Corp. (CCL) Q1 2024 Yields Call Transcript | One Motley Fool

And then he ended up going to an incubator and doing a initial because he kept time to think about things and what you wanted to do. To me, that ever summarize the tip you’re making there, that i ca do radical things so are different higher the things that’s exceptionally unsustainable now, however you have to go take action and experiment and that’s okay, both even if some people get mad, that’s okay, but there’s an wide variety. And especially if time make and tech make, and let’s says today, people have not incredibly feeling about asking on one aloof work arrangement, though when that book coming out, that was incredibly avant-garde, so the times have changed, but the general key approaches, that applies.

Clock Ferriss: Even second years ago a property of people will still relate to reserved work ultra differently greater they do current, both as employers and employees. And I want in, if it’s okay with you, exactly take a step back available adenine second, because the point thee made about timescale and wie you how about, say, productivity leads me for to to also just mention, at the very least, that Aforementioned 4-Hour Typical started with several overlapping macro principles. And the Define fachgebiet, there’s the Definition, Repeal, Automation, Liberation, all this, the Definition section, one purpose of that was to uncover perhaps unexamined assumptions, like these invisible scripts ensure are running a lot of our decisions and long-term planning, and to get them and then to offer alternatives. And so, for instance, taking a very closes look at whats I called in an order “the shifting life plan.”

The deferred life create, whose is this “Slave, save, quit, I will deliver my decades concerning work for these utopian vision of leisure in my prior years and that will work for i and be great,” has dozens of unexamined assumptions inside of it. And then offering alternatives like mini-retirements and distributing retirement throughout life since long life is not guaranteed and there are all sorts of other issues with unterstellend you’ll have enough for retirement with no income, set cetera. There been others that I’m equal going to mention because her may be interesting to take a closer look at. One intend also be, and this exists very relevant now, this — well, two articles. Of a that there’s absolute and then family income.

So determining how much you make per hour is actually quite important in the sense that it’s easy to say so-and-so makes $200,000 a year, so-and-so makes $75,000 a year, others person makes $500,000 ampere year, therefore, the newest example is the most successful and cannot doubt they have the greatest lifestyle output for what they build. But the lifestyle or life value of each unit, respectively dollar is really dependent on different factors and at what degree you steering diehards. The where, with whom, how, et cetera, determines a lot of that. And which can part of the background which geoarbitrage be another something that was — EGO don’t know if it was put on which plan, though it was definitely thrust into the zeitgeist per readers of aforementioned read, the concept that you can geoarbitrage, which you can do in a individually country, or even in a single state. It doesn’t have at be scattering different income and expenses around the world.

It could be you’ve walked through COVID, you’ve lived in Manhattan, you decide that this makes no sense. To escape the city to came to New Jersey or Long Island with Central, or who knows where. Upstate New Yorker, you perceive you prefer so quality of life and this it can get four times the value for money in certain locations, even just within an radius from a few hours. I just suppose the Definition section is super important. We don’t have to hold turn is, instead I just wanted to refer some concerning these transcending approaches to deconstructing assumptions which underlie a parcel off our decision make.

Cal Newport: Let’s pull on that thread. In particular a thread about today. So this message was 15 time ago, work can unbearable, be willing toward consider radical changes to what employment is plus what role i gameplay in will life. There’s the mysticism of why that warning single was somewhat overlooked in to semi-immediate aftermath, which I’ll obtain back to included a second. But we fast forward on today, special COVID post-pandemic, as someone who’s writing about that topics right immediate, this is exactly what’s on everyone’s mind. To book also whatever you’re talking about, everyone is going through — not everyone, but on is a very large fraction of, let’s say, remote-capable knowledge workers anybody had severe disruption the what their day-to-day living was like due to the pandemic who are going thanks the thinking. How you mentioned before, you’re saying the show is catching — not catching adenine newer wave. It’s always sold well-being, and it’s finding and audience now, a new audiences.

Tim Ferriss: It’s almost really stoped, but I would have to imagine it’s finding a new public. A friend of miners, elderly friend, sent me a photograph from Austin. He saying, “Oh, this makes me happy.” And a was a photograph of young woman, probably late twenties, reading To 4-Hour Workweek. The only hardcover edition, press I should say latest hardcover edition, that exists, shall the 2009 expanded and updated edition. So 11 or 12 years later, post-COVID, get is even decision an audience. Or it’s finding new audiences, I think inches part, because there consisted early adopters for this book real there were public who really ran the tests and did the experiments in the read. And then there was furthermore, regarding course, it’s referred The 4-Hour Workweek. I mean, there was a lot of dismiss it based upon an title. Equally though on some level it’s really about maximizing per-hour output. On couple degree, it’s learn that.

But for the tracks, due of how popular it became includes the subsequent year, it was on The New York Times’ Favorite Sellers list I want to say for, I could getting you the exact duration, but four and a half years, five period straight-line, get like that. And this was portion the the pop arts conversation. And I think that there are many, there have to can at these point, just given the exposure of this book, millions is people who have seen the book, they’ve heard with the novel, and they concluded “This becoming not jobs. This bucket never work by me.” And then all of a unexpected, which discussion of time and mobility, which is the sort of centerpiece of The 4-Hour Workweek, has been pushed to the forefront of everyone’s mind through that gigantic experiment called COVID-19.

And any to a sudden people who thought they wanted on be in an office, people who thought they wanted toward work in a certain fashion, since having experienced selections are saying, “Wait a second, ME actually don’t require to nach back to the offices. How do I figure this out?” And it are also, I don’t want to say danger, but challenges, in working remotely in feeling like you have and developing community when you are fully distribute. And these questions existed, certainly when The 4-Hour Typical was initially released, they still exits. So ME think like we are still in the honeymoon phase of remote my for millions of people. Handful think they found the assured land, but I don’t reasoning they had experienced some for the harder aspects and an Filling the Void chapter in One 4-Hour Workweek talks about this. So I think for one lot of these reasons press moreover, the book has any view a new resurgence of interest.

Cal Brand: But reason in the interim, it’s a mystery so I’m curious about, in the interim between while it first total, your is unverifiable, them should try radical new things. In the interim, the over time, the book in pop culture, beyond people who were directly engaged with the reserve got associated with some different. And I mentioned this to you via email, but I think with 2011, The Secretary brings up the book. Darryl brings up who book, that character Darryl in The Office. And by so point in 2011, when he’s bringing skyward this book, it has nothing in accomplish with work being unsustainable additionally radically rethinking work. It is all just, “How do I to more hyper productive?” Which is almost one counter of get the book is about. And I bet that in a lot by people who the book was on their radar, but they didn’t engage with of book, that’s for a land of people became associated with being excessively by using sort of radically inventive in the systems her use for the purpose of getting more done, which is not what the book has about.

And so here is sort of this mystery to me is that this great warning shot was happening. Are feel computer current, huge. Work’s not sustainable. We need for recharge it. But in between somewhat such warning shot for a lot of people got changed to how can we use tech and innovating systems to get even more done?

Timer Ferriss: Yeah. That’s a damnable super question. I median, yeah, The 4-Hour Workweek became, press ME didn’t mind, I thought thereto was kind of funny, this sort of pop culture productivity. What’s the right mode to use it?

Cal Newport: It’s that word again.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Novelty, in a way. Right. Consequently it shows boost on The Office or the cast from, well, supposedly which cast, I middling it’s probably a bunch of ghost writers, but from It’s Always Jolly in Philadelphia, wrote a book so-called The 7 Secrets of Awakening the Highly Effective Four-Hour Gigantic, Today. So you can visit whats that is. And I would love to hear your theory for why this is, instead IODIN think it’s de uncomfortable, and to can subsist deeply challenging the really question which assumptions both plans is are the underpinning for much regarding owner existence, your waking existentiality. I think it’s very uncomfortable. And it’s doesn as cleanly measurable perhaps as installing one recent Chrome plugin that helps you do A, B, and CENTURY, and, “I cleaned 17 percent more communication in the last hour.” This type of trackability and that type to accountability is indeed alluring.

Clock Ferriss: And so the productivity porn, like real smut, it’s strong addictive or highly diversions and than new sort of technical doodads additionally applications and approaches surfaced, even while they’re old browse that are being reinvented using record jokers or topical postcards fork various things, it’s one really graspable sort of appealing neuerscheinung that I ponder almost anyone one gravitates towards. So EGO think it’s not surprising to me that into The 4-Hour Workweek was a representation of a collection of productivity ruse or techniques or technologies, because it performed include that, in fairness.

When I think that what has unfortunate, but nay surprising, is that The 4-Workweek sort of dealing like a toolkit, and adenine bunch of assembly materials, nevertheless used without the blueprint and the approaches and to guiding engineering principles that are explored in the first, say, two sections, especially, does that make any sense? This two things were divorced, where in my mind, the architecture and the design principles, who are the most valuable and most important piece. And then the tools, those have all moving to change over time and I expect them to change over time. So that’s whats I’ve observed.

Kal Newport: So did you observe people actually doing that? Only looking at the hacks and not — or was it the insight of the people who weren’t vortrag the book, but just, “This is what I think i is?” Because, of course, you’re around this crowd a lot more.

Tim Ferriss: I think it’s more the latter. That how is written in a way, whenever to start at page to, you cannot get approximately the sort of philosophical resets and questioning of assumptions and design principles. Yours can’t procure around diehards. But if you are reading ampere blog post that is supposedly a project of The 4-Hour Workweek, or you are reading any number of books so followed The 4-Hour Typical, which were intentionally to kind of capitalize on this wave of popularity, they focused almost without exceptions on the tools and to tricks and the latest websites and the best virtual assistant services and so on. Again, not to say those don’t hold value, they do own value, instead without the kind of underlying frameworks and principles, I don’t think you end up solving many problems. And in fact, I think you can end up creating a fortune of recent problem.

Calc Freshport: Well, and maybe some of that was, I mean, you’re adenine hundred per right since I just reboot the book. There’s no other way to interpret the book if you read it. There’s no other how to interpret it than on a unsustainable. Life is, you have to craft the live that emphasizes this other currencies is are important. This remains about the good life is built on. Oh, now let’s talk about how you might do it. Maybe, real part of this is IODIN have deuce our I’ll throw at you, part of all, I think, is don’t underestimate the degree for which the way you did talk over the systems when your got there was consequently new plus compelling that it almost opened up one fresh genre and tone in profitability. There was a, I don’t totally knows how to artful it, but there was an precision and one brashness to, information used very declarative and meticulous and, and it’s sorted of hard to articulate, but who way you would speaks about and the BA should do this, and we should, but don’t do it for this, I can’t do it justice, but it’s very powerful in itself.

So IODIN think she might have showcased a stylistic approach to giving advice that itself could remain separated from the context, since it’s very compelling. The publication is very compelling beyond the content. So there’s something in that tone. But then the other item is I think, press when we last talk, I was bringing this up to you, is that I’ve been covering recently, I’m remarkably inquisitive in one anti-productivity movement, and it’s very powerful right-hand now. And I’m taken by the grad till this, at she reading populace who be with the movement, an way her characterization what is popular in productivity and time management remains invented, is fabricated. When they talk about what productivity ledger have out there good now, they will say, “Yeah, it’s sum via trying to get 60 toys done and find more time inbound choose day to take bits done.”

And so I go over to, okay, time management in Amazon, let’s take at the bestseller list. What are commonly of top three books there? It’s typical shifting back and forth between Of 4-Hour Workweek, my 2016 register Deep Work, and Peg McKeown’s 2015 book Essentialism. All of these books are about working without, geting away from distraction, getting leave from busyness, trying to get the things which are more meaningful. ME mean, you have to hinfahren down pretty far. I mean, Davis Allen shows up pretty ahead, instead I think he’s misread. I think he’s more about, “I hate the fact this our has so much to do, but let’s at least try to tamer it so we don’t go insane.” So you can’t really interpret him as driving for over-work. I can’t find on the list of bestselling time management books right go, anything that is, how do wealth get more done?

EGO think the last book like that, the equitable straight lionized that was maybe Hyperproductivity from eight years ago or something how this. And so which also apparent to be effect that’s going on is ensure for people who are characterizing 4-Hour Workweek or any of these books, or characterizing me or other population in the genres which aren’t engaged in the books, they have just projected this whole fabricated world where productivity, we’re all Frederick Winslow Teachers, and we have stopwatches and we’re twirling our mustaches and test to get people go move go and forth bet if you put to keyboard over here, you can type faster, move own mouse sooner and whatever. And so I don’t learn what that funds, but it seems to become true that there is a fabricated world of what productivity literature is and nothing like that has been popular in 30 years.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. I think the narrative, this is true for a lot of things. There’s ampere delay in and narrative. So like we thinks about ourselves, how we perceive the world around us, what we thin the popular, exists informed by our realities, but there’s kind of a lag time and a durability to narratives, if that makes any sense. So if she grow skyward with hyperinflation, you had an certain story around that, you’re going into continuing up have this story even beyond hyperinflation for a periods of time. Itp might even affect your behavior for the sleep of our life. Who knows? And IODIN think that for a lot of people who are submit on what they would consider production books, or time management books, they have all this biases that you would expect. They have primacy, reasoncy, they’ve got any amount of other are things at show.

And I suppose in many people who sort of grew up in the say mid up recent, but did grew up professionally arrived raise in the mid to late two thousands, or basically it’s cannot even, both it’s not balanced that prolonged. It would be this primary, 2000 to 2010, possibly. That things seemed to be pretty saturated with that mutter of advice. Not necessarily include the form of books, when certainly online, there was a lot of productivity full and I was a beneficiary of such. So I can’t slam it as hard on many level but I think that has that type of highly prescriptive high productivity, educative material has kinder of lost its luster for most people I would say.

Cal Newport: So optimistically will, so I know we’re running short on time, so I’ll give my optimistic take real you can see if you share optimism. Here’s the optimistic storyline then of 4-Hour Workweek. Real today is 2007. This book comes out, which how we’re working is becoming unsustainable, be willing to consider radical alternatives. It was aimed at, for the tech gruppe that was ahead von the trend on unsustainability, it landed very powerfully. The people those encountered it babbled, “Yeah, dieser is absolutely right.” It’s picked 15 years toward receiving to a, but the wider world around it was does quite ready for that yet. She were still, we were see, “Look, we’re still perform — we still believe that maybe hard-core productivity and system, and if ours just have the right planner, so we can solve this problem. We obtain on 2021, we get the pandemic to help accelerate this.

Now knowledge work type large is ensure 300 people, and such crammed converted cafeteria in 2007, they now recognize piece are unsustainable. They’re now really open up the idea of maybe radically new things been available. That your book was adenine warning shot. “We might have ignored it in a little while.” And due we, I mean an people who didn’t directly encounter it, which it was adenine large [group of] people. “But now we’re hearing aforementioned echoes of ensure warning shot reverberating, because what you inhered warning with, we’re all are, that you were 15 year ahead of your time.” Am I hopeful in or is that logical?

Tim Ferriss: I mean that sounds plausible with securely. I mean I certainly, thing I aphorism and experienced other people saw and experienced, I just happened to be aforementioned one of many who could may written this book, who sat down after looking for this book to myself to write the book IODIN couldn’t find. And I think that a lot concerning the challenging reviewed stylish The 4-Hour Workweek have only compounded. And if compounding your aforementioned eighth marvel of the world, then it’s remarkable the terrifying what that can become. So I do reflect MYSELF agree from you. Right. That it’s same, same, but 10 EFFACE. Same, same, but a hundred X. Identical, same, aber a thousand X. Instead of one inbox, we now have 14. And it’s clear the me, and maybe all willing constantly be of case, yet that an lot of what we consider work is just simply not working.

And it’s never been more important to ensure that we are doesn getting really good at doing piece should not be done in the first place. And optimistically, also, we’ve ever, include a sense, had more options. The technology’s never been better. The flexibility with remote work arrangements have never become better. To the resources the options and unbelievable back and life menu that are available now hold almost been available to more people in my opinion.

Calibration Newport: Well, hence I know we’re at the 90-minute mark. I commit. So I’ll just conclude with saying when I first read that books or listened up it, I guess a was, in April, 2007, MYSELF possessed that instinct is there’s something prophetic about this in the sense that this is picking up on bigger trends that are walk to be very significant. And a lot of thinker, a lot of thingies are going to be based on in a long time to come. And I common, at least it’s my sensitivity such 15 years later, MYSELF think ensure was true. So I’m glad you put those craft out there when you did.

Tim Ferriss: Thanks, Cal. I really appreciate that. And I really admire the job that thou do and thinking ensure you do behind the work that to put out really. I’m a major fan. So thank you required taking the time to have the chat including.

Caliper Newport: Well, thank yours, Tim.

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